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Tezuka In English Discussion Forums • View topic - Official Phoenix discussion with spoilers

Official Phoenix discussion with spoilers



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Official Phoenix discussion with spoilers

Postby cmoon » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:07 pm

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Postby Jiminy » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:52 pm

Yeah, I'm really going to have to read the whole thing through again.

However, one thing that struck me while reading Sun is the depiction of Buddhism compared with its depiction in Karma. The theme of reincarnation that runs through Phoenix had always led me to associate it with Buddhism, but Sun really expands the concept past religion.

I think the discussion in Sun, that religions will continue to come and go, and are all ultimately correct (vol.11, p260 onwards), was really bolstered by the fact I went into it with the positive image of Buddhism from Karma, only to be shocked by its image as a foreign invader, and the idea that both are to an extent correct.
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Postby cmoon » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:08 pm

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Postby Jiminy » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:33 am

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Postby cmoon » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:13 am

OK, so anyway to be more objective; things I am interested in exploring:

-Plot intersections (for instance, vol. 2 p. 278 is part of Dawn vol. 1 p. 12)

-Reoccurring characters (including resurrections): The phoenix woman who appears in Sun vol. 2 (p. 115) and tells the spirits about the spirits about the 'eight hundred nun' (Strange Beings) appears elsewhere--Perhaps the 'bird woman' in Life?

-Appearance of star-system characters and their significance: IE Rock is a main character in both Future and Life. Questionable Black Jack appearance in Nostalgia (I don't personally think it is BJ, but...), etc.

-Reoccurring themes and ideas: For instance, personal spirituality versus religion as a form of political control (Karma and Sun)

-Analysis of the work-as-a-whole

I need to seriously spend some time with this series. Parts that have not struck me as significant before seem more important now. I'm convinced that as Tezuka's life-work, Phoenix holds a lot of the answers as far as what Tezuka wanted to say as an artist. I hope others will join me in trying to break down this 3-4 thousand page work into something we can wrap our heads around.
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Postby Jiminy » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:31 am

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Postby cmoon » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:52 am

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Postby dwillems » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:09 pm

I recently was able to read Civil War, with the reprints, and loved seeing the armless statue maker from Karma appear as a "God" in Civil War, and he talks about dreams of himself in the future, which I believe is his character in Nostalgia (though i don't have the books in front of me)
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Postby Jiminy » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:33 am

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Postby cmoon » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:04 am

Last edited by cmoon on Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cmoon » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:08 pm

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Postby cmoon » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:42 am

A very minor point but I thought it was worth noting: the ending of Future and Sun are quite similar with the male and female leads being separated for very long times (thousands versus billions of years) and then reuniting at last and becoming part of the phoenix or cosmos.

The recapitulation of this theme makes me think that perhaps Sun IS very close to the intended conclusion for this series and that the final book (or books) may have unified several themes throughout the series.

Certainly, if this parallel isn't one of laziness (and is hard to think that Tezuka would ever resort to laziness in his phoenix series), we can at least say that while condemning politics, religions, perhaps even the nature of society itself, Tezuka remained a romantic, seeing room for the relationships between people to evolve over numerous reincarnations before becoming one with the phoenix/cosmos. As ridiculous as that looks written down, it feels pretty close to some sort of Buddhist/Christian hybrid (more emphasis on the Buddhism).

Anyway, I suspect there may be something more to the parallel, but I can't really grasp where else Tezuka intended to go with it--that is, if Sun is in some important way meant to reflect back on events in Future...or something else???
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Postby cmoon » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:32 pm

I re-read Yamato last night and felt like righting a few things down as this certainly stands as one of the most unusual phoenix stories (and probably one of the most difficult for non-Tezuka readers.)

For starters, this one is about the movement from human sacrifices in kings' tombs to the use of statues. It is also about the first recorded history of Japan and a strange, unfinished tomb that seems to have been abandoned.

Now on to the weirdness: Yamato is really two projects in one--first it is the story I described above, but second (and of virtually equal priority) it seems to be an outlet for both some pretty free-ranging humor and experimental illustration. At times the story completely takes back seat to the humor which often borders on the surreal; and to be honest, on my first read I was very much put off by this.

Coming back to it now, it is quite remarkable to see the great length that Tezuka went to to insert what are often some pretty elaborate jokes. For instance, a whole frame involves a scene somehow mutating into Custard's last stand, at which point the Native Americans decry the entire page as nonsense! Elsewhere, Tezuka alters his illustration mode to girl-manga style with large glittering eyes until his characters complain so bitterly he's forced to stop.

Remarkably, while Saruta is noticably absent from the story, many 'classic' characters appear in gags, including Kenichi, Mushachio (I think his only appearance in the series), the 'please'd to meet ya' man, and many others. At points, this sort of humor really borders on lunacy where it seems Tezuka has really let the jokes take over and become an active part of the narrative. The main character even takes out a 'dear abby' column where it is advised if nothing else work to cure his depression, he become a comic artist.

The last act reins in the jokes however and we get a relatively straightforward phoenix story. And perhaps that's just why all the jokes and weird narrative are necessary since outside of that, this is a pretty bland and mediocre entry in the series.

The only connection I noted with the other stories was the man we see climbing out of the whole at the end of Dawn is the founder of Kumaso. We witness his death in this story.
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Postby Jiminy » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:47 am

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Postby cmoon » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:37 pm

Speaking of Space:

Here's one I've always considered to be at the bottom of the heap as far as Phoenix stories go; however there is actually much that is critical to the phoenix story-line and a few aspects that will pop up again later (yes, you guessed it, in 'Sun'.)

First off, it is interesting to note that ALL of the jokes are gone. There is one extremely minor site gag that doesn't involve or impede the flow of the story), and that's it! One must assume that whatever role the humor was meant to play in Yamato, Tezuka felt it innappropriate here. It may even show some indication of the importance of this story, I'm not sure.

The presentation itself is futuristic with all too perfect square frames that always open on one end--I assumed this was to indicate the direction the panels should be read, but this isn't true at times.

It probably isn't so important to discuss the plot, but it is interesting to note how many different genres and story-types that Tezuka deals with, ranging from pure science fiction to murder mystery and even a bit of twilight zone. At its core however is the question of genocide, and we discover that the Phoenix is very willing to go out of her/it's way to punish those who would commit such crimes.

It is very interesting to note that the phoenix appears as a Fremil (an alien species that is entirely killed off by the human Makimura.) The Fremil's bare some superficial resemblance to the phoenix in the form of bird legs. The phoenix will choose to appear this way again in Sun (vol. 2, p. 115) when she directs the injured gods and spirits to a place of healing where time has stopped (Phoenix vol. 9, Strange Beings.) It is unclear why the Phoenix choses this form in Sun since in Life (vol. 9) she appears in a completely different humanoid form--assuming that this really is the phoenix, I'm not sure.

It is also unclear what connection the phoenix has with the Fremil since we learn in Future (vol. 2) that she is part of the cosmos associated with the life-force of the earth. It seems in this story, the role of the Phoenix is quite larger, or perhaps the phoenix is the cosmos, but in Future, the form Masato encounters is a circumscribed aspect of the whole??? More than likely this was never meant to be clearly defined and we may assume the Phoenix is associated with the life-force of many worlds, and watches over their development. In this sense, the destruction of the Fremil would have been a great sin committed against the Phoenix, and explains this darker aspect her willingness to damn characters to endless suffering/torment.

Saruta's curse comes about because of his selfishness for a woman (and thus perhaps the curse is fitting.)

Last, I again return to Apollo's song since I feel it is stories like Space that argue most strongly that Apollo could well have been a Phoenix story. I'd now go one further and say that Apollo's song was perhaps a bit redundant for Tezuka. I can see why he did it, but Space gets the idea of deities enacting perpetual revenge first, and perhaps better. Oh well.

I'm not sure there is much else to say about this one, but it certainly isn't the minor entry that I considered it before. Rather, Space is a revealing and important story in the Phoenix story-line as a whole.
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