Video Game CONSOLE WARS -- FIGHT!!!

[Tetsuwan]

[Kuririn]

[Kevin]

[cmoon]

I can see how much this whole business is largely going to depend upon one's taste in games. Still, I will formulate my defense for the big sony cash cow that doesn't need defense soon enough.

[Kevin]

[cmoon]

[Kevin]

[cmoon]

[Kevin]

I believe the statement of videogames being dead after Dreamcast deals entirely with this one issue:

Very little originality or variety remains post Dreamcast. Outside of say the Nintendo DS or "classics titles".

Here are the different types of games in the old systems:

* Turn Based RPG
* Exceptional Sports Titles
* First Person Shooters
* Third Person multi directional mapping
* Action based RPG
* Combination based RPG (turn/action)
* Racing Games (I separate them from sports)
* Random Violence games (GTA types where you run around beating people up doing specific chores etc...)
* Strategy Games (remember all the old Chess and board game titles?)
* Fighting Games
* Problem Solving Games
* Side Scrolling Fast Action Linear Games
* Fantastic Worlds type of games (high fantasy, steam punk, etc... these games used to be everywhere)

These game types used to be found in equal abundance.

Nintendo Wii is the only system on the market TODAY which even tries to have all of these types of games.

The current RPGs out there, especially the ones from Square Soft (Now called SquareENIX after the buyout), are absolutely HORRIBLE. There have been so few DECENT RPGs on the Sony end, and even then, the last GOOD one I played on a Sony system was Star Ocean for PS2. There's NOTHING worth speaking about on the PS3. NOTHING!

The last three Final Fantasies were so horrible they haven't even made the Greatest Hits lineup yet.

As far as Fighting Games goes -- last great fighting game I played was Mortal Kombat Gold on Dreamcast.

Playstation 2 and Playstation 3 games suck so bad in the Fighting area -- I have no idea what is Sony's problem. They used to lead the Fighting Game arena with Capcom.

Tekken has been one massive disappointment after another.


There is no such thing as a Side Scrolling game outside of the Nintendo DS and certain ports to Wii. People say -- Why want a side scroller? We live in a 3 D WORLD! Well, I'm sorry, but there are plenty of awesome side scrolling games.

Including new ones!!

Ever play Maple Story? One of the best RPGs on the net right now. More subscribers than any other MMO outside of World of Warcraft - - it's a side scroller.

There is a certain charm to side scrollers.


Anyway I'm just ranting, there are plenty of other comments I have on this issue, but I think you now know what some of our complaints are ^_^

[cmoon]

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

[cmoon]

Yes, these replies are getting huge. I'm composing in word now! Quotes are also starting to get obnoxious. I'm going to reply to a few of your points but leave a few others alone.

1. I hope we can all participate in this non-debate fashion. There is far too much subjectivity in video games anyway; and since I have enjoyed video games from the Atari/Intellivision age, a heavy handed debate seems silly.

2. What are we debating: Video gaming died with the dreamcast.
My argument: Video gaming is alive and well and continues to evolve.

3. Most of the counter-arguments (not just from here):
-New games aren't hard core enough.
Response: This is actually one of the better arguments. A few games have responded with both very hard modes and even scoring systems, etc. It is also worth noting that when systems have released old-skool games (IE see Blast Works for the Wii) they have tanked.

-The use of 2D and 3D should be an artistic license.
Response: Again, I agree with this however this is an old and tired argument. Sony may have created a situation in the US by not allowing 2D games as full priced titles except in compilations, but now the market has followed suit. Just see how successful a full priced 2D game is going to do these days?

Also, people forget how much of a slump 2D games were in. If you owned a genesis/SNES or did the arcade thing during the early 90's, you got used to basically seeing the same game over and over -- AND the early 90's were a better period for video games than the late 80's (far more creativity!) Personally I love this period of video games, but how many more times can I play SF2 without wanting to see something new. So people are upset now that there aren't so many 2D games--but when 2D games come out, they don't buy them. They also don't buy the games that have old school video game elements (IE God hand.)

-The old games have heart and soul, the new games don't.
Response: There's no good reply to this because it is totally subjective. To say that pixels have more heart and soul than polygons is really hard to pin down. I've definitely seen some new games with a lot of love put into them, but the big companies will always put out faceless crap. They did back in the day, they still do now.

-Old games (with limited graphics) let you use your imagination more.
Response: I agree. So did reading. Television has ruined reading, and of course television was ruined by its ADHD approach to programming. Personally (and I am serious about this one) I think that RPGs were ruined by having pre-defined characters that TALKED a LOT. I like playing my characters the way I want to play them. So, no, it wasn't just graphics. It was a whole way of pushing a plot line down our throats instead of letting it unfold on its own. This is IMO the big problem that square has and I'm thrilled to see Enix and Atlas releasing games that allow for more traditional play.

-Games aren't very creative anymore. Look at all those sequels. Where are the truly inventive games?
Response: To me this is a funny argument, because this problem has always existed and will always exist. There were lots of sequels on every console (except for short lived ones like the DC), and in the arcades to boot.

Certainly, the big franchises suffer from stagnation, just like the street fighter and mario games basically did the same thing over and over and over. But on these same systems you can find some extremely inventive games. I've mentioned a few of them in my last post. Again, I think anyone who is targeting this more at one generation of consoles than another is probably playing their beloved console with rose-tinted glasses.

AND NOW...ON TO THE SPECIFICS (quotes are paraphrased):


"How dare you say the new Final Fantasies are for teen girls and gay men!"


Have you actually played them? The proof of this one is in the actual playing of it. The one I played (11?) had an absurd star wars motif; a female friend with skin-tight clothes (but no love interest) and a main character who ran around shirtless in purple suspenders. YOU DECIDE! (oh, and the gameplay was rotten.)


"I don't think these new games are any good, but I haven't played _________!"


Personally I think this is the problem. There's often not more than a handful of great games on any console, and IMO from what you've said, you haven't played the best of them.

Again, my collection is en route at the moment, however just for starters (many mentioned elsewhere):

-Disgae (strategy rpg)
-Dragon Quest 8 (one of the best old school rpgs in years--absolutely essential)
-SMT Nocturne (same thing)
-Ever Blue 2 (often overlooked game with emphasis on collect-em-up, exploration and rpg elements -- no violence at all.)
-Shadow of the Colossus (all-enveloping game experience that the PS2 couldn't quite handle; redefines the limits of video games.)
-Sly 2 (probably deserves mention--very solid platformer)
-Okami (Zelda meets eastern spirituality???)
-Dodonpachi DOJ and several other 2D shooters that only appeared on this console are are among the best in their genre. (most of these titles need to be imported and modded for.)
-Silent Hill 2 (one of the best survival horror games to date.)
-Red Star (interesting 2D shooter/run&gun hybrid that went by unnoticed.)
-Gradius V (fantastic 2D shooter)
-Devil May Cry / God of War / Metal Gear Solid -- very different titles, but each deserve to be played. Pretending that they don't exist or are bad games is rather silly.
-And yes, God Hand. Probably my favorite game on the system.
I know I'm missing some exceptional things here (like ICO), and may fill in the blanks when I come back to this post later; but these are all games that are either outstanding in quality or are clearly good in the old school sense. This to me does not fit with the idea that 'video games died after the DC.'


"I wouldn't say there are a good number of 'good' titles on the PS2..."

But you admit to not having played virtually all of the exception titles on the system. I don't want to come off as a jerk here, but if you haven't played the good games and are only judging the system by all the stinkers, of course the system is going to come off as wretched. I want to again remind you that the DC is one of the only consoles I know if that actually had a pretty high ratio of good games to stinkers. The 8, 16 and yes 32 bit generations were LOADED with stinkers. But selective play can always make it seem this isn't the case. Perhaps a weaker statement like "I just haven't played any new games since the DC that I really like" would be a much more appropriate than "Video gaming died after the DC."

For myself; I own the Genesis, Saturn, DC, PS1, PS2, GC, Wii and a smattering of handhelds. I can attest personally that of all of these consoles, I have more quality games for the PS2 and have put more hours into these games than any other console. Obviously everyone's tastes vary, but saying there are no good games, when you can find virtually any kind of game you want on the PS2 just doesn't sound right.


"What is this God Hand you speak of?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY90Jl-W6Bg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyfbtSyX3mc

Effectively God Hand is the evolution of the side-scrolling brawler using the Resident Evil 4 game engine and bringing in more complexity (ala street fighter.) Move-sets are totally customizable and there's a lot of strategy (cancels, juggles, guard breaks, split-second dodges, etc.) matched by a strong AI, a rank system and a game that wants you to feel the nostalgia of Final Fight and Double Dragon. The difference however is that for the most part, all the old brawlers were button mashers only, with maybe one trick move. God Hand will destroy you if you try to approach it like a button masher; so patience and being clever are highly rewarded. The game also has a wicked sense of humor, and unlike those old brawlers, God Hand has dozens of hours of game play if you care to get good at it.

For people who liked brawlers AND fighters, this is probably the best game on the console, though it is also very misunderstood by those who didn't understand you couldn't button mash, or who couldn't rise to the level of the challenge (it is a hard game!)


"PS2 games overflowing with macho, action-movie crap."

Some yes, some no. Obviously if you choose the macho, action-movie type games (Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Auto), that's what you are going to get. I fail to see any of this in titles like Katamari Damacy, Everyblue 2, Persona3, etc.

"What about the 64 bit generation?"

My vote for one of the worst consoles of all time (excelled I suppose by systems like the Neo pocket, and a few others that essentially tanked upon arrival) because it really didn't have much in the way of games. Beyond the Zelda, Starfox and 3D Mario titles, it is really hard to see what would bring anyone back to the N64 other than...nostalgia (and a love of horrible controllers.)

Honestly, the 3D0 might have been a better console ???

PS-I forgot the import of sin and punishment. I never really got into this game, but you can download it for the wii now, so it doesn't make hunting down the title or an import friendly N64 worth it.

"Saturn is the best console of its generation."

Well this is anyone's call. I was importing for mine, so it was great. Near perfect ports of a lot of Capcom fighters and side scrollers, plus tons of 2D shooters. In the US though it was truly slaughtered. There is no way that someone from the US would call this the best console of the 32 bit era because Sega of Japan put a strangle hold on Sega of America and killed the system.

With all the recent arcade perfect ports on the PS2, my Saturn mostly collects dust; but busting out Radiant Silvergun or Battle Garegga now and then is definitely a treat. Also, Life Force 2 and a few other shooters!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUzbKDIqkQ

"PSX had a few good games, mainly final fantasy..."

*sighs* Really? Just a few? I'm not quite ready to put together my list here; but the PSX had a good library of rpgs, 2D shooters, fighters, platformers (both 2D and 3D) and well, just about everything else.

You aren't biased against sony consoles are you?

[Kevin]

I'm not going into full debate mode on this, because you do have one major flaw in your view of console gaming, cmoon:

You say it is the developers who choose the type of games, and the genre.


I'm sorry but you are 100% mistaken. The developers do try to "choose" the game types, but it is the official heads at the respective companies which allow or disallow games placed on their systems.

Square Soft can't just say: "We're going to do x type of game."

They say: "We want to do this."
Then Sony or Xbox says: "We will/won't allow you to place that on our system."

Sony and Xbox have openly stated they will not allow standardized shooters and 2 d scrollers as taking up official retail space.

Nintendo, on the other hand, does allow it.

Square tried to get Final Fantasy Tactics on the PS3, but Sony refused. Nintendo had rights of second refusal, they locked it in.

Most of the variety in Sony games and genres now are limited to PS2 and PSP. Did you know that Sony even refused to have Street Fighter Anniversary edition on the PS3?


Sony and Microsoft have tunnel vision when it comes to their games. Their requirements are:

* Lots of eye candy, full utilization of their 3d engine.
* Lots of movie videos in their games.

They won't accept anything of variety. They commission games from developers more than allow developers come to them.


Despite Nintendo's racist behavior (oh god are the CEOs racist), Nintendo at least tries to get a variety of games on its consoles. PS2 and PSP are apparently the only good things Sony has atm and they desperately want to phase PS2 out.

[cmoon]

Well again, there's a bit of half truth going on.

Let's not forget the original argument that gaming died after the DC--a system that strongly supported 3D games. Anyway...

You certainly are right that the new consoles are pushing 3D. This DOES NOT mean that the developers themselves aren't also pushing for the 3D and the eye-candy as you say.

Again, I'm trying to point out sales here. The PS2 has seen a lot of old skool niche titles, many of which are in very pretty 2D but I don't see any evidence that either of you have been buying them. Don't feel bad though, neither has anyone else. The titles in general tank, and sink to the dollar bin in one hell of a hurry.

I tried to bring attention to Blast Works (a title neither of you have touched) which is a side-scrolling 2D shooter that let's you build your own shooter with its interface. Within as little as a month, the title went from $40 to $10. There is a reason why this is happening, and it goes back to what the market wants.

Saying that developers like Square are being forced to make big budget games that makes lots of money instead of niche titles like Einhander 2 or something is sort of absurd and niave. The DS has allowed them breadth to make whatever they want to (so has having all the money) and clearly they have done just that--huge 3D games that are all eye candy and no soul. You can hardly blame Sony for this, especially while Enix is still turning out old skool rpgs within the framework of these newer consoles.

I guess what keeps bugging me is that the PS2 has all the types of games that both of you have been asking for; even though you say gaming died off a long time ago. Maybe there's less of the games you like to play, because when developers do manage to push a few out there, you don't buy them.

It reminds me how parents keep whining that there's not good G rated family films. Then a perfectly good family film comes out (I'll use Two Brothers as an example), nobody sees it. The theatres sit empty, and the heads of major companies look at their books and say 'well, let's not produce/support/distribute' other films like that. What people go to are zany, spastic dumbed down kiddie fair or PG-13 super hero films or romantic comedies.

I'd like to side with the folks whining about the lack of good family films, but they voted with their own dollars. Video games are the same way. Maybe instead of saying there aren't any good games anymore (which isn't true), you should support the good games coming out now.

[Kevin]

cmoon you keep trying to avoid or dismiss what I am saying about the major console companies (xbox/Sony) demanding 3d eye candy over substance.

I've been reading their company statements and press releases. Developers aren't the ones pushing 3d games. It's the companies of the consoles themselves.

Nintendo is still on the brink - sorta. They act like they've always acted.

I mean seriously, Nintendo produces Cooking Mama games so they're not as at fault as Sony and Xbox.